Your view is isolated. You need perspective.

Bad shit happened under Saddam, man. BAD SHIT!

I agree. Very bad shit. It was terrible. For many it was terminal. Doesn't change the fact that for the average Iraqi the odds of dying a violent early death are much higher now than they were then.

Imagine that a woman lives in an abusive relationship. She gets beaten several times a week. Her three kids have to see this, but never get physically abused themselves. One night a nutjob breaks in. He kills the abusive husband and the abused wife. He also kills two of the three kids. Are things better in that household now? No. That doesn't change how bad it was before, but it is worse now.

That's perspective.

I have never said that one justifies the other. If you talk about mortality rates, then yes more people have died after Saddam. I was making reference to David's post that women were prostituting themselves. The article was not talking about deaths, so I was not referencing them. David claimed that the trade off for women in Iraq was wear Burkas, or be prostitutes. I was pointing out that women were subjected to far worse than wearing burkas under Saddam's rule.

You keep implying that I am in favor of the current situation, because Saddam's rule was brutal. This is not the case, and I refuse to argue the side you are offering me. My argument was about prostitution in Iraq.

Quote Archimago

Wow, I don't remember making that claim. You continue to put words in my mouth.

Quote David


was that not what you were implying.

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I'm not implying that at all. Things were bad then; things are bad (worse) now. That's all I'm saying.

No, it was not. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't believe in black or white truths. I would never say or imply "it's either burkas or prostitution" for Iraq women.

I believe I made my purpose clear earlier when I said:

Quote David

You take what you want from it. Apparantly you want to believe that I'm handing down some ultimatum where it's either head-dresses or hand jobs.

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Why am I picturing the Land O' Lakes girl?

then we are doing the same thing.

I am comparing the prospect of prostitution to the prospect of being beheaded. If you don't want to be accused of black or white thinking, you should extend the same courtesy to me.

Show me where I have accused you of the same.

Specifically neither of us have accused the other of black and white thinking, but you keep implying that I'm justifying one thing with another.

Sir, you did so just above. You said,

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That's a 1 or a 0, black or white, up or down choice. One that I did not set forth.

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I have trouble buying this. You may not believe in many, but I bet you believe in some.

Try me.

I would bet that you believe that either 2+2=4 or that it does not. Also, I would think that you likely believe that either the Earth orbits the sun or that it does not. Read Aristotle. it is always that case that either P or ~P.

You post an article about prostitution.
You then say " Good thing we went over there and made sure they didn't have to wear those burkas anymore!"

The essence of your post was prostitution or burkas.

Sir, I'm not even sure that I exist (I'm operating on the assumption that I do). How can I accept anything as complete fact beyond that?

This will take us into the realm of thought exercises that I don't wish to pursue, however. Just understand that I believe nothing with 100% commitment. I am, however, operating at 99.99bar% certainty on many things. I do, however, leave room for doubt in any belief.

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I don't think that's fair. I understood what he was saying, so I assume you did too. He was using the Burka as a symbol of Islamic oppression, which we were supposedly going to end.

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Okay, I'm actually mostly with you here. I didn't realize you were talking about certainty. I personally am only certain of one thing: that I exist. Beyond that there is always room for doubt.

Quote Archimago

Say it enough times, maybe it will come true.

The essence of my post was that we acted like it was going to be a fucking utopia for women in Iraq after the war, and it sucks big time for many of them. Nothing more, nothing less. You're the one who brought prison torture, beheading, and accusations of me "making things up" to the table.

And now that we've moved into the realm of ad nauseum repetition, I shall retire.

I am a bit more literal in reading things online. Maybe knowing a person face to face gives you insight on what they mean. If you read his post from a stranger's eyes he is talking about one specific thing. The war causing women to be prostitutes in opposition to wearing burkas.

I accused you of making things up, because you did. You assumed something the article never said. That is making something up. You may be correct, but it is still making something up until you can cite a resource.

Quote Archimago

Sorry, I can't let this stand.

The article didn't say that 4+7=11, that apples grow on trees, or that if you attempt a powerslide in shorts on a rough sidewalk you will skin your knees. Am I making these things up?

if you have no evidence( anectdotal or otherwise), yes you are making it up. You specifically said you were going out on a limb. You had no evidence to back up your assumption. My original reply was that I feel the assumption was missing the point of the CNN article.

4+7=11 is a truth that most of us believe because we learned to count using a decimal system. In octal system 4+7=13.

Powersliding in shorts is something we all learn is bad when we skin our knee for the first time.

That non-Iraqi men are frequenting the Iraqi women in the article is not common knowlege. For that to be a fact, you need evidence. The evidence can take the form of:
- Anecdotal Evidence
- Testimonial Evidence
- Statistical Evidence
- Analogical Evidence

You provided none of these. Remember that I am not saying you are wrong. That would require evidence. I was merely stating that you had no evidence for your statement, therefore you were making something up. If you had responded to my post with statistical data, or even (although weaker) anectdotal evidence I would have accepted it and we probably could have saved our fingers a lot of wear and tear.